The nightmare is over

We've left China and are now living in South Korea. The differences are enormous. In China, people spit loudly inside the elevator, on the escalators in supermarkets, on the street. In Korea, people disinfect their shopping carts with UV light in special boxes at the supermarket. In China, people throw paper in a basket near the WC when they go to the bathroom, then dispose of that paper every 3 to 6 days. In Korea, the toilet seat is kept warm electronically, emits a pleasant beep when you sit on it, and it's got buttons for different types of water jets.

But the biggest difference is that our new apartment is heated! Southern China apartments have no heating and we freaked out when we noticed we were starting to skip showers for the cold (you could literally see your own breath even sitting in front of the PC at home).

Faced with an expiring visa and another mandatory trip to Hong Kong, ongoing difficulties with suppliers, including people shouting profanities in the middle of the street at us because we rejected filthy parts, plus a number of people suddenly becoming unfriendly including the landlord, who decided despite contractual obligations that she wanted us out with only 48 hours' notice... we decided it was a good time to extract!

The immense joy of leaving China was diligently postponed for a number of months. We knew this time was coming. We tried not to get too excited about it because manufacturing had the priority and we didn't want to incur delays or accept lower quality parts just to get out a bit earlier... but this was a good time to leave, and we can now really allow ourselves to celebrate.

The nightmare is over!



We now enjoy clean air, clean food, clean streets, clean and polite people, and a warm home! No abject poverty everywhere in sight, no layer of concrete powder covering everything (but some pretty white snow). An average suburban apartment seems like heaven right now :)

For the future, we will try to move manufacturing to Korea bit by bit because it is just too time consuming to do everything in China. You have to be on the phone every hour with all of the vendors or they'll just forget about you. Can't run a business and do that kind of baby-sitting at the same time. We're now training a local guy to aid us with face to face sort of stuff and other than inspecting shipments he's going to be our "Pushing engineer" tasked with pushing everyone, all the time.

Parts of our product are already in our US and EU fulfillment centers. Other parts have been screwed up or delayed and we're working day and night to source them before Chinese New Year; we think this should be doable.

So it will take a bit more time to launch but we're really working at impressive speed.

This is our first attempt at using warehouses and coordinating people and shipments across four countries. Logistics and fulfillment aren't trivial parts of a business and we're happy to report that no problem has occurred until now.

Comments

By johnsteed at 2011-01-15 13:57:39 Reply

Glad to hear your nightmare is over! I still have no idea how you're going to remotely manage production runs of the PCB assembly, even with your trained associate. It would seem no-one but yourself could have managed to come out of that last production run with working units. And I'm surprised the manufacturer didn't charge you overtime beyond their quoted fee for all the rework (necessitated by their poor procedures and bad soldering irons).

Best of luck and enjoy South Korea! I've never been, but would like to go. Not happy with N. Korea's recent military saber-rattling (which actually has killed S. Korean sailors and at least one civilian).

By GabbyLilly at 2011-01-15 16:08:09 Reply

At least the quality will be much better at a comparable price, and the food in S. Korea is yummy!

By norman1066 at 2011-01-17 04:09:42 Reply

I'm very glad your nightmare is over.

Hopefully our nightmare (well SOME of the male followers of your blog anyway) is about to start :-)

By Leo_Severin at 2011-01-18 18:26:36 Reply

Your efforts and commitment are impressive. You really are on a mission. I live in Japan and am not surprised by both your experiences in China and Korea. I suggest that if you want a less costly alternative to China than Korea, you might want to consider Vietnam. While I cannot vouch for it first-hand I have heard from a number of people that attitudes toward business relationships in Vietnam differ significantly from those in China. In short, experiences in Vietnam appear a lot less crazy than in China for most. And it is by now clearly cheaper than China.

By lust4me at 2011-01-19 12:13:46 Reply

Sounds like everything is well on it's way. Would you be able to provide a status update on what is left before these are on sale? Do you have anything you can share with us on this front?

Seems like a lot of folks are eager to get one. I know I am.

By dreamloverlabs at 2011-01-19 22:41:26 Reply

We're sending packages across the world. Some parts are only sold in the UK, some only in Japan. Then there are molded parts coming from China, and now we're in Korea so some stuff we'll ship from here. At the same time we're trying to redo the receiver's battery packs (screwed up by 5 companies already) and the packaging before Chinese new year (in a few days), the only two left over things.

We're also trying to streamline our arousal inducer manufacturing because the manufacturer is very unhappy with the time it's taking to create these. It's so complex only he (the CEO) can do them, so he's got to spend his time at the machines instead of sealing million dollar deals. Not very efficient...

By johnsteed at 2011-01-19 23:19:12 Reply

I saw that arousal inducer problem coming miles ago. Or kilometers.

By onehundredyears at 2011-01-20 09:43:24 Reply

Dear DreamLover Team: Your experiences are fascinating but I think most readers/potential customers at this point would prefer to have the following questions answered:

1) When will DreamLover2000 be for sale?
2) How much will it cost?
3) Will it perform as advertised?

As the founder and owner of several small businesses over five decades, I can tell you every new product and service being brought to market has similar stories of hurdles to be overcome and difficulties to be endured. Yours are unique because of the product and the goal of your company, but they are not unusual. Most customers simply don't care what is done in the back room by the product/service provider to make the transaction possible.

Imagine going into a restaurant in order to have dinner. You want a menu that shows what is being offered that night and for what price. Instead, the chef comes to your table and starts telling you how she haggled over the price of today's catch at the fish market and then spent three hours looking all over town for the right spices and herbs for a sauce and then fired two kitchen workers for stealing and then spent an hour with the health department inspecting the kitchen for violations.
And after all the stories from the chef, she can't tell you what is on the menu, what the price of each dish will be, or when it might be brought to your table if you order it. I would think at that point you would leave for another restaurant.

Your perseverance is to be admired. But save the stories of what it took to bring DreamLover2000 to market for the book you will write when sales hit one million.

From a sympathetic entrepreneur who will buy your product if you ever price it and offer it for sale.

By Lance_Lake at 2011-01-20 10:08:30 Reply

I could not have said it better myself. Though I have tried. Several times.

By dreamloverlabs at 2011-01-20 23:34:29 Reply

This product is not for sale yet. Those who wish to watch the development process may follow our blog. For everyone else there's a notification list (left link on this page).

Sign up on that and we will notify you at least 1 week before we're ready to accept payments.

Thanks.

By JohnKelso at 2011-01-21 10:11:11 Reply

I agree with the restaurant example and the comment:

Your perseverance is to be admired. But save the stories of what it took to bring DreamLover2000 to market for the book you will write when sales hit one million.

It's getting real old to keep hearing those stories. As long as it has taken, it makes you wonder whether this product will ever come to market or just is a great idea that's been posted the last several years on this blog.

By Henry at 2011-01-21 13:59:24 Reply

I think the last few comments are a little harsh. Yes of course we'd all like to know the price. But I don't think it's easy to estimate what that final cost should be. Naturally, the later you determine the cost, the less unknowns there are. Besides what difference does it make whether you know now or in a few weeks?

I am not an expert in any way but here are some the problems I can think of:

If there was just one production run, it would be easy to calculate the cost per unit. But I gather there will be more than one run. Production runs have set-up costs and unit price will depend on how large these runs are. Would you think it fair to pay a higher price for a DL2000 from the first production run and then allow other customers pay a lower price for a later higher-volume run?

To be fair to customers, you have to absorb some costs in the initial run and then make it back in the later runs. Now how do you estimate the unit cost?

Demand: estimate too high and your have an overdrawn bank account and a full warehouse. Estimate too low and you don't get the economy of large runs.

Final price: estimate too high and you lose customers because it's beyond their budget. Estimate too low and unexpected last-minute costs mean you have to increase the price when it comes to market and you get disappointed potential customers, Either that or accept making a loss.

It's absolutely true that other start-ups have similar issues, I'm just saying it is non-trivial. Perhaps those experienced and knowledgeable entrepreneurs among us could recommend some spreadsheets showing how to estimate price taking into account several production runs and uncertain demand (assuming DL2000 wants outside opinions on this).

As for the blog recounting the trials and tribulations of development, I think it's very interesting and keeps people coming back. Who'd still be visiting the website if there weren't regular updates? Keeping people interested helps increase demand, so it's perfectly sensible really.

It is definitely challenging to run a start-up without significant financial backing, especially when there is a long R&D lead time and production is offshore.

Disclaimer: I have no connection to Dreamlover or the people involved - I just think the whole process of getting to market is really quite difficult. For the critics: ask yourself, would you be willing to do it?

By 6KGuy at 2011-01-22 11:27:24 Reply

The restaurant comment assumes that you go into a restaurant that is OPEN for business.

DL Labs is NOT opene for business yet. They are just allowing a peek into what is going on in order to GET the business open.

By slavecowie at 2011-01-23 03:19:46 Reply

Good point Henry!! completely agree with you.

If ppl can not handle the updates, don't read it and wait for your mail and only look then.

I find it very interesting and i think the dreamlover team can use all the suport they can get.

slave cowie

By jill9511 at 2011-01-23 07:19:01 Reply

Personally I really like the updates on the process. The writing is amazing and very insightful.It is amazing to see how bad china is at making things and how much trouble it is. Please continue with the blog. Please!

By johnkelso at 2011-01-23 09:18:53 Reply

I'm beginning to think this blog has been total fantasy. When you think about it, no company/individual would risk the personal liability associated with the use of this type of product. Label/literature warnings will not prevent suit happy people to file lawsuits related to potential bodily, physical, emotional, etc. harm. Defending against lawsuits (regardless of the country of incorporation) whether they have merit or not would be costly and can easily strip an individual of any assets they might own. It's unfortunate to lead people on like this for several years about a fantasy product that will never come to market.

By danielapwebb at 2011-01-26 08:08:33 Reply

I really wondered whether this is all an elaborate hoax, or someone with a very deep sense of humour, or just completely crazy? There are too many practical questions unanswered (I could list them if you want).

And why did entering the DreamLover website result in an attempt to install spyware on my computer?

Daniela

By sub3604 at 2011-01-23 14:15:58 Reply

[quote]Would you think it fair to pay a higher price for a DL2000 from the first production run and then allow other customers pay a lower price for a later higher-volume run?[/quote]

yes things are always more expensive when they first come out that is just the way things are prices should be set given and changed as required besides it would be up to dl labs to decide weather to drop the price or keep it as is and keep the differance subsequent runs should not be taken into account when pricing you don't send everyone who already bought a product a bill if you have to increase pricing.

I have enjoyed reading these updates and still do but feel by now some idea of pricing a pricing range could be given even if it is it wide range

By Onehundredyears at 2011-01-23 16:09:29 Reply

My restaurant analogy has produced a good, spirited discussion and I agee with some points that have been made and disagree with others. While i may sound like a critic, i am really an enthusiastic early adopter who can't wait to buy a DL 2000.
But let's address price.
What would you be willing to pay for the most recently described DL2000?
I am prepared to pay up to $300 (US), which is twice the price currently being asked for a new CB-3000.($149)
Would you pay more? IPads start at $499. The folsom electric PSG max electrostim system is $349 plus accessories.
If the DL2000 hits the market at more than $300-$350, i will probably wait to buy one.

By johnkelso at 2011-01-24 06:29:19 Reply

Don't worry about the product hitting the market. It never will because of the liability issues. No amount of warning messages will ever protect an individual or company (regardless of what country it is incorporated) from the number of suit cases (even frivolous) that will filed due to physical, mental, emotional, etc. harm causes. Unfortunately, there are a lot of unscrupulous folks out there who will file suit cases to share in the profits.

By slavecowie at 2011-01-24 10:49:21 Reply

then you can also make suit case/legal action to other BDSM vendors with the same reasons....even somebody who sells rope....

By onehundredyears at 2011-01-24 11:29:16 Reply

That why there are insurance companies. Any electro stim product or other similar BDSM product has the same issues. And law suits are no fun. I have been sued and have sued. Only one who makes out in law suits is the lawyer.

By JohnKelso at 2011-01-24 14:09:41 Reply

No insurance company would insure such a risky product which is so easily subject to lawsuits (even frivolous ones).

By dreamloverlabs at 2011-01-24 23:14:58 Reply

Insurance companies will sell you a policy. They will sell you life insurance if you're 99 years old. The question is for how much.

With their litigation experience (they usually have their own lawyers) they are in an optimal position to assess our risk in this area.

It could turn out to be a substantial portion of our operating expenses, perhaps exceeding those related to manufacturing, just like for many kinds of medical devices. We've made our disclaimers as good as they can be to avoid this possibility. We'll see.

By JohnKelso at 2011-01-25 06:16:57 Reply

I agree that insurance to cover lawsuits (including frivolous ones) would be cost prohibitive given the high risk for this product. As I mentioned earlier, there are a number of shady people out there who will definitely attempt to get their share of the profit on this product and defending against physical, emotional, etc. damages will be costly. No amount of product warnings or disclosures will hold you harmless from the many suits that will be filed whether they have merit or not which is unfortunate and why I don't think this product will ever launch. It's a shame to see someone's life savings stripped clean over a great product idea.

By dreamloverlabs at 2011-01-25 11:44:24 Reply

Well John, thanks for all your encouragement! :)

If you so firmly believe that our business isn't viable then you're just going to have to hurry and get the product before we go bankrupt. Whatever the cost we'll supposedly have lost money on it (tons and tons of, assuming we only get through a couple production runs) so that would be a very lucky deal wouldn't you say?

We've now got stuff moving to warehouses across the oceans. We're here celebrating, not sitting in the dark at night worrying about some buffoon willing to stand up in court saying he applied the Penis Shocking Device to his penis, and unexpectedly and unbeknownst to him - it shocked him! :)

The main risk is that if someone really sues, we'll have to hire staff to keep up with the free publicity and press inquiries.

Plus, we'll take them to Judge Judy, that's what we'll do! Always dreamed of being on Judge Judy :)

By JohnKelso at 2011-01-26 10:40:53 Reply

I'm glad you are so "cocky" (excuse the pun) about my warnings of potential liability. You won't think it is so funny when the frivolous suit cases start rolling in (if you ever bring this product to market). With regard to your arrogant remark that you always wanted to be on Judge Judy, be careful what you ask for. I'll bet you'll have plenty of opportunity to show up in a court room. I'm sure there are lots of vultures out there waiting to get their share of your profit (and your assets if you even have any).

I found your reply to be very arrogant and disrespectful. I was only trying to warn you of potential risks. That is no way to treat a potential customer. Of course there probably will never be any potential customers given how long you have stringed this charade along.

By dreamloverlabs at 2011-01-26 11:22:49 Reply

Thank you for your warnings and sorry to have hurt your feelings. You make a very valid point but your insistence makes one feel that you're expecting us to shut down the business or something, which is obviously not going to happen.

Feel free to post your points on the forums if you wish for others to comment.

Thanks

By joho69 at 2011-01-27 06:48:44 Reply

people are all ready applying shocks to them self from electric dog shock collars to tens units to made specific estim items if you look on some of the estim sites you can find plenty that do remote estim bondage

By can-lock at 2011-01-25 09:35:19 Reply

I, for one, enjoy the detail of the updates. The updates allow us a view in to the long and rocky process in taking a product to market. Please do keep it.

As for litigation. No doubt there will be those that will hope to make windfall gains at the expense of others, or of the product. It seems that they might view that as a way to untold riches. But it seems to me that any user of this product does so with the full knowledge of the risks and with the complete acceptance of those risk. Whether you are a contoller or the wearer you do so willingly. There is no force or coercion. And if there was coercion then that says something about the relationship to start with. No doubt I will wear the device and will experience the full range of its attributes. I do so willingly knowing that I can cut the wires or even remove the device and the cb completely at any time that I choose. That may or may not have consequences for the relationship but the relationship has to be based on more that the device or its application. For us it will be something that enhances, through play, an already wonderful and most intimate interaction.

Oh, and about that iPhone app.........

By can-lock at 2011-01-25 09:46:11 Reply

As for price. It will cost what it costs. With a reasonable profit.

As I look at the Miller products which are simple and cheap to produce and compare them to this product I see several orders of magnitude difference. This product was much more difficult to design and manufacture.

We spent many hundreds of dollars on a Neosteel belt and thought it was worth it. For an eye opener check out the price of the "education shield" that Neo offers.

We will no doubt spend many hundreds on this too.

We do look forward to its imminent release. Especially if it will be half as much 'fun' as we think it will be.

By harry2345 at 2011-01-28 14:56:35 Reply

I've not been following closely enough to know if you've been getting big thank you's..

SO in case..

THANK YOU

Great job at making life more exciting. In short, hero's of making life more fun. Can't say I've added this much fun to everyone's life. So

I say boooo to all the doubters. I mean honestly, if you don't believe it move on. Bloody hell must be a small world for you lot.

So thank you very much. Can't wait.

By dreamloverlabs at 2011-01-28 23:06:39 Reply

Thank you very much for your patience and for sharing our adventures :)