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On data disclosure (changing the online F/m matchmaking dynamics)

2010-10-27 18:27:25 (3950 views)

Rather than focusing on the specifics (is the ex owner listed or not) it may be beneficial to talk goals.

The current situation, if you look at lifestyle websites, is that there is a vanishingly small minority of ladies seeking obedient males, and newcomers are overwhelmed by responses to the point they are turned off and give up. Most complain about the lack of worthwhile matches despite receiving thousands of messages.

The problem is the anonymity and impunity of online interactions, which transforms the males into an amorphous gelatinous mass with no particular differentiating characteristics. Finding the serious ones is a very high involvement process few decide to go through.

We want to change the game. We want to make this a step closer to real life, and limit the flakiness and craziness, so that F/m relationships can become more commonplace.

The first step is to agree on the goal. If you think the goal is worthwhile, then the next step is how to achieve it. With the tools we have in hand, we can:

1- Enable a reputation to be created by logging actual results and any data that will reveal a certain degree of commitment ("pedigree"). What the data will be and who it will be visible to can be debated.

2- When a hierarchy can be established, the focus passes from males seeking an owner to owners seeking males, because the latter can be differentiated in some way. So a lady can come online and ask the system, show me the serious ones with status and prestige. Which ones have learned the silent commands? Which ones can do basic household chores? Which ones were reprogrammed based on the course presets created by my online friend Jenny? Which ones took the courses with their device on and which ones didn't bother getting confirmed and may have cheated? Which ones have rapidly raising grades and which ones have begun to slack off? Males don't even need to be able to make first contact. They'll just hang around and behave and they may be chosen; or, they may hide their profile and make training arrangements offline.

We're in a unique position to be able to do this because we can pair males to a unique hardware ID.

If there is an agreement that all of the above is at least somewhat desirable for all of us, then we can go down into the specifics of what gets shown and when...

Comments

By sub3604 at 2010-10-27 19:25:58 Reply

I agree all that is very desirable yes but how would it work getting it confirmed that the device is on though. I mean if a guy is going to cheat there isn't really anything stopping him creating a profile as a woman to confirm himself. I not sure how to effectively prevent cheating but if it could be done that would be fantastic.

But even if you cannot positively prove the device is on it would still show accurate scores and what has been learned.

By dreamloverlabs at 2010-10-28 00:09:46 Reply

Good point. One potential scenario is that the ladies who provide certification on cam are charging the males to confirm their taking the test (webcam sessions are in fact mostly paid). In which case they have enough incentive to get certified by us by whatever means (snapshot with a unique number written somewhere, or webcam recording - whatever).

If we cannot prove the device is on, we still have the scores, correct.

By sub3604 at 2010-10-29 07:30:06 Reply

I been thinking about this one and one idea I had was at random times have the software deliver call level pulses (without beeps)that are to be counted then at the end of each section you get asked how many call level pulses you received in the section. It wouldn't need to be many say between 1 and 10

That way if you knew the answer you confirmed to the system you were wearing the device. That seems to be the one that would be hardest to cheat.

By dreamloverlabs at 2010-10-29 07:37:49 Reply

Great idea!

We have to make sure the DL2K-LINK and receiver LEDs stay off and add some firmware code but it's worthwhile and doable. Instead of a total count better ask the user to click a button within a few seconds when a no-reason mini-pulse is received. The well deserved pulses will be accompanied by a 'triggering' indicator on the screen so the male knows not to respond to those. Very nice.

By sub3604 at 2010-10-29 11:40:44 Reply

the proof button to be clicked after a mini pulse at a random time would be great. With say 10 seconds to click it which is actually a really long time. Would it be possible to deduct points gained in that section if you don't click in time. The mini pulse doesn't need to hurt just be felt so the call level should be ideal and should not be mistaken for a normal pulse.

That is much better than having to count and possibly forget how many have been delivered over a section and will prevent cheating

By JohnKelso at 2010-10-27 19:34:04 Reply

I don't think your currently stated goal captures the real desire of potential buyers of this new product. You're assuming that most submissive males are more interested in abandoning their current relationships with their current female owners and being recruited by new dominant females who would like to know some "pedigree" info on their perspective submissive male.
If that were true, you wouldn't hear such an outcry from so many males that the info should be private between them and their current female owners.

Instead, I believe that the primary goal should focus on how can we better satisfy and meed the needs of the current female owners over their current submissive males and not offend them by providing information that information that should be private between them and their current submissive male.

Once that primary goal is dealt with, then I believe we should focus on the goal you currently stated.

I'm more interested in potentially buying this new product to satisfy and to please my current Mistress (and not primarily to be potential considered by a new Mistress).

Thank you for listening.

By dreamloverlabs at 2010-10-28 00:15:10 Reply

Hi, John.

We estimate less than 1% of potential buyers are already in a training relationship, which is why most people are so interested in the USB peripheral! But we could do a poll at some point...

For those lucky ones who are, then no problem! Keep the profile hidden and nobody can see you or your scores. Data can still be retained for when you decide to show it.

The main issue is not exactly what to show, rather, whether it makes sense to base the whole infrastructure, user accounts, permissions on the basic assumption that one male will be coupled with one device. If you already have an owner, the one male one device choice allows your owner to know you're not messing around online with someone else using a different account.

Until now the only objection against that has been that you wouldn't be able to sell your second hand DL2K-LINK. The rest of the comments have revolved around what to show and what not to show, which is still important but not as much because it's relatively easy to change that in the future.

By johnsteed at 2010-10-27 20:41:33 Reply

Your goals are certainly well intentioned. And in fact, as most males, I must deal with the huge imbalance of Dommes to sub males, knowing the deluge of messages they receive from the moment they sign up at an Internet site, etc.

But the fact that use of the Internet control feature requires participation in this mandatory logging and disclosure gives me pause. And the fact that it gives me pause is a problem -- otherwise I've been hugely cheer-leading this product.

By dreamloverlabs at 2010-10-28 00:25:01 Reply

What gives you pause exactly? Tell us your thoughts.

By lizliz at 2010-10-28 01:28:40 Reply

Maybe I'm not quite up to speed an all this lifestyle websites and ownerships and stuff, but a lot of this discussion is kind of putting me off. For my personal situation, I'd like to get something like this for my boyfriend and I to use. I am not interested in 'owning' any other guys and similarly, I'm not interested in my boyfriend being 'owned' by some other woman.

If these courses look useful, he'll take them. That he took and passed them only need to be shown off to me. He doesn't need a certificate or pedigree to tell the world he's taken them. I'm the only one that he would take the course for and I will know if he successfully completed them based upon his actions, not what some certificate or website says.

The extent of web control that I'd be looking for is that we plan on putting the dl2k-link on a little netbook computer that he can take to the office and I'd want to be able to reach out and touch him from home.

As far as granting additional control/access, there are some times when I'd want to leave him under the supervision of one of my friends or I might drop him off at their place for the afternoon to help them get caught up on their chores. For those occasions, I'd like to be able to give them a limited capabilities remote control so that if they need to effect a correction, they can.

Will there be a way to do these things without anything being stored in your database system? I'd rather not have any information kept there even if there isn't personally identifiable data. It's just something that neither of us want.

By dreamloverlabs at 2010-10-28 01:43:26 Reply

Hi Liz,

thanks for your comment.

- If you have a real life relationship with your male, most of this discussion does not apply to you. You will probably just set yourself as owner of the device. You will never need to assign ownership to someone else, or revoke it. It doesn't matter for your purposes whether permissions are set on the male or the device. All is quite simple.

- Based on people's responses we will allow profiles to be hidden for males who're already "taken" so that no one else will be able to see the scores or that the profile exists.

- The limited capability remote control wasn't really planned for but now that you mention it, it would be useful to have a "dummy mode" that deactivates all the most advanced functionality and button sequences, not just for "lend a male" scenarios but also for beginning users, so that you're not afraid of pushing dog mode in the middle of a conference (especially if the male is on stage :)). We'll see what we can do.

- As far as not storing data on the servers at all we haven't thought about this possibility because there's no personal data there and the courses are the same for everyone. Having the data on the server allows you to check progress online and have a record of how the score is improving which is quite convenient. You could go on vacation and leave the male at home studying and get daily emails on his progress. This sort of stuff. Does having this kind of anonymous data on our servers weigh more for you than being able to track his progress? If you and others think so then we'll have the data upload optional, though we can't see how it would hurt - the whole world is moving to server-side applications, and our kind of data is way less personal than, say, google docs, or accounting applications online. All we can see on this end is that user 123 has a score of 80% on domestic discipline and 70% on the butler crash course and how much time he spent studying and how many times he got zapped trying to complete the course... or something like that.

Please let us know what you think.

By lizliz at 2010-10-28 19:45:55 Reply

Even beyond hiding it and/or keeping it anonymous, we don't want any of the information about uses or courses or anything being uploaded. Others might not be as sensitive about privacy issues as we are, but we don't use google docs or on-line accounting services or any of that stuff.

For example, the grocery stores here have discount cards that you scan at the register to get discounts on various goods. Since I know they use those cards to track customer buying habits, I am careful about using it. I have four separate cards, each with random names and random addresses tied to them. I never use any single card more than once per month. I throw them all out about every year and start collecting them again just so they can't make out what my shopping habits are. Even though I know there's nothing that's traceable back to me and it's that information isn't made available to the public, I still take measures to keep that information private.

I would still want an option for none of that information to be uploaded at all. Then I don't have to worry about your database being hacked or someone there changing their mind about the privacy settings or anything like that.

If such an option isn't available, we'll just make sure the dl2k-link is on a little netbook with the internet connection disabled so that there's no way the data can get out. I would be willing to give up web access/control if that's what it takes to keep that data private. And if there's some kind of activation or something that requires internet access, then I will have to just do without it. I'm hoping that's not the case as I can see a whole lot of potential with this product.

My personal situation is probably different from a lot of people here as my boyfriend's chastity wasn't really his idea. As such, the 'willing participation' aspect is a little more tenuous with us than it is with probably 99% of your clientele. Since we're only boyfriend/girlfriend, if I get too ambitious, there really isn't anything to keep him from grabbing a pair of bolt cutters and just putting an end to all the progress we've made.

By dreamloverlabs at 2010-10-29 04:44:15 Reply

We hate to be tracked by big corporations too... so you're totally preaching to the choir :)

We have thousands of people on the notification list, and we haven't spammed them once. Don't have shopping mall cards either and we have personal ties to activists fighting against verichip and all that stuff. We know what you're concerned about.

In fairness you can't put us in same category as google tracking your searches or something.

Some online only businesses with large user bases thrive on operating monkey schemes on the data. We sell electronics that's where profits are supposed to come from, and the user base is so very tiny that it's not like we can boost the bottom line by selling leads or doing predictive analysis on usage or whatever.

Like, ok to everyone who gets 100% on the butler course we could recommend a special tuxedo or silver tray but that wouldn't make us rich it would just be awkward. Notice we have no ads on the site despite the fact we're profit-less for 2+ years and have tens of thousands of views!

It seems like some are viewing this online storage of data as something that's an advantage to us and that we want to push on people where this is not the case at all... Having online data benefits users because they can find serious partners and that's the only goal this will serve. We don't get any value out of knowing who got what score on the courses. If we wanted to sell data we'd use the email addresses, we already have plenty of those - knowing course results and ownership assignments adds no value to us at all and won't add value to potential new owners if we ever sell the business and won't add value to hackers were the site (god forbid) ever to be hacked.

> "If such an option isn't available, we'll just make sure the dl2k-link is on a little netbook with the internet connection disabled"

Hmmm... the Uplink application pings the server frequently to retrieve messages. There is no way to exchange data if you're offline! But we'll give you the option of not uploading any information at all since it seems it's important for you! Username, email, and password and online status must be stored in order to be transmitted, we already have those so hopefully it won't be a problem.

Be careful using the DL2K-LINK at work - you should wait until we have an unnamed server somewhere with no domain name, and if people want to do this we must make our XML format a bit misleading (just added on the to-do list) so that if network admins with nothing to do check what's going on with the repeated pings to the same address they can see "Antivirus updater" or something, rather than "Male management session"! :)

See, we care about your privacy.

In conclusion having data online should be seen as a privilege for willing males looking for someone, not something we do to benefit our business.

At this point it would make sense to have the pedigree program as an extra subscription based service and charge a small monthly fee of 1-2$ which also adds to the "screening" logic behind it. This will help us pay for hosting (we'll probably need a dedicated server to be able to ping frequently and decrease latency) and it should reassure people we don't store their data... unless they pay us to! :-)

--

Hope that sheds some light on our stance and this is not meant to be confrontational at all, in fact we're glad to have gotten your feedback and will try to accommodate your requests - that's the whole point behind the blog and always asking your opinions :)

By sub3604 at 2010-10-29 07:13:39 Reply

"At this point it would make sense to have the pedigree program as an extra subscription based service and charge a small monthly fee of 1-2$ which also adds to the "screening" logic behind it. This will help us pay for hosting (we'll probably need a dedicated server to be able to ping frequently and decrease latency) and it should reassure people we don't store their data... unless they pay us to! :-)"

Well $12-$24 a year would be better having to make any payment every month would suck and I don't do direct debits. Not even for the utility bills. Also the first year should be included free. I would not be happy to get a product and find I immediately needed to pay more to use it's features. Where one year down the road it would be a reasonable charge to help cover your ongoing costs of the program and I would know if I wanted to be in the pedigree program,what it was like and if it was worth the small annual fee. It would also encourage you to make the program worth it. Perhaps by occasionally including downloadable short bonus courses to pedigree members.

By dreamloverlabs at 2010-10-29 07:16:21 Reply

Agreed.

By JohnKelso at 2010-10-28 09:56:01 Reply

PERSONAL PRIVACY is the real issue that you don't seem to be hearing from everyone. You have a great product; however, it may very well lose its attractiveness if you don't abandon your idea of tracking the personal data (regardless of how harmless you seem to think it is). Look at the privacy concerns voiced by Facebook users within the last year and you'll begin to understand how important privacy really is to customers.

Your suggestion to "keeping the profiles hidden" is really not the answer to the privacy concerns being voiced. Everyone realizes that the data you're collecting will still be kept and available regardless of "keeping it hidden."

I really hope you seriously considering abandoning your idea of tracking data on the users. I'm really looking forward to purchasing this exciting new product and recommending others to do the same; however knowing that personal data will be tracked on me (even if you plan to keep it hidden or the data doesn't appear to be important) gives me real pause and could very well affect my decision in purchaseing it. Thank you for listening to this feedback.

I value my privacy.

By sub3604 at 2010-10-28 11:04:46 Reply

Well by keeping it hidden it would only be available to your owner or administrator. There has to be some information at the server for the DL link training to work but if there is nothing to ID you why does it matter. You will give dream lover labs more sensitive data actually buying it. I don't see what else they can do now that they have done this http://www.dreamloverlabs.com/blog.php?viewid=233 but if it bothers you that much you still have to option of just using the remote control rather than the DL usb link

Dream lover labs seem to be listening to our concerns but need some information for the USB link to work.

By slave85boi at 2010-10-29 07:02:05 Reply

i believe.. u guys r tryin to match women with men (trained/being trained/untrained but willing)who are presently single or are lookin for control by more than 1 woman.
in that direction.. i wholly support the idea n im sure privacy issues being raised here shud b of minimal concern.
coz only ppl interested in such lifestyle wud take all the efforts to register, pay (if at all), verify and the use the data.

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